By Matt Heinz, President of Heinz Marketing

About 3 years ago we started a weekly radio program called Sales Pipeline Radio, which is live every Thursday at 11:30 a.m. Pacific. It’s just 30 minutes long, fast-paced and full of actionable advice, best practices and more for B2B sales & marketing professionals.

We’ve featured an impressive list of guests and will continue to do so with awesome content and guests going forward. We cover a wide range of topics, with a focus on sales development and inside sales priorities heading into and throughout the year. We’ll publish similar highlights here for upcoming episodes. You can listen to full recordings of past shows at and subscribe on iTunes.

We were thrilled this last time to talk with Tracy Eiler, CMO at InsideView Technologies in an episode called, “Managing Massive MarTech Migrations:  Strategic & Tactical Best Practices with Tracy Eiler

She is the author of her own book, Aligned to Achieve … I highly encourage you checking that out on Amazon.

Tracy’s Dreamforce deck, referred to on the show, is Here.  Definitely take a look while listening (or later)!

This info. is helpful not only for those thinking about a transition but for prioritizing MAP objectives/needs no matter what platform you use.

We talk about, among other things, requirements that go into why you make a marketing automation transition. Tracy talks about gathering requirements and thinking through strategy and needs from demand gen and from marketing ops.  Listen in to hear her answer how the sales team is involved in that process and how should you help manage people through the change management and keep morale high throughout the process as well.

I want to give a huge shout out to today’s sponsor, is a Chrome browser extension for your Gmail that allows you to track and schedule your emails.

It’s a super helpful tool  if you’re in sales because you can receive real-time alerts, right on your desktop, as soon as your prospects open your emails or click links within your emails.

For more info, be sure to check out!

Matt:  We are right in the middle of college football season, which means we are right at the beginning of Q4. Thanks very much, everyone, for joining us on Sales Pipeline Radio. Really excited to have everyone here with us. If you are joining us live on the Funnel Media Radio Network, thanks so much for joining us in the middle of your work day, appreciate the numbers. It’s pretty impressive, always appalled to see the number of people joining us live each day. It’s crazy. For those of joining on the Podcast, thanks very much for subscribing. You can find us on iTunes, on Google Play, Spotify, and where all fine Podcast are sold. Every episode of Sales Pipeline Radio past, present, and future is always available at

Hey. Before we got into things today, I do want to give a shout out to our new sponsor. Paul, we have a sponsor of Sales Pipeline Radio.

Paul:  What. You’re kidding me?

Matt:  Oh, it’s amazing. We’ve got a great company that came to us. They’ve been paying attention. They’ve been listening. They want to be a part of the show, and I love what they’ve been doing. Very excited to have MailTag join us. It’s They are a Chrome browser extension. If you are using Gmail and you are doing sales, you got to check these guys out, very helpful tool, highly recommended. You get real time alerts on your desktop. You find out when your prospects open your emails, click your links.

Paul:  You know when the email gets open? They notify you immediately?

Matt:  They notify you. They give you a sense of what they’re looking at. It integrates with CRM. You can do auto replies. If you are using Gmail and you’re a sales rep today, definitely check them out. It’s We’ll put it in the show notes as well, really excited to have them on board as a sponsor of Sales Pipeline Radio.

Also, very excited to have joining us today Tracy Eiler. She is the CMO of InsideView. She’s joining us from, I believe, Tracy, you’re joining us from the Gartner Sales & Marketing Conference today. Is that right?

Tracy:  Yes. I am, Matt. How are you?

Matt:  I’m great. I really appreciate you joining us, very excited. I’ve been wanting to get you on for a while to talk about a number of things, including your book, Aligned to Achieve, How to Unite Your Sales and Marketing Teams in a Single Force for Growth. You can find that on Amazon. Tracy is well decorated, a top 35 woman in BW Marketing Technology. Paul, you will appreciate, she is a fellow Michigan grad. Go Blue.

Paul:  See?

Tracy:  That’s why I’m laughing-

Paul:  I knew there was something.

Tracy:  We got 40 yard line tickets for the game on Saturday. We’re leaving the Gartner Conference, popping home, packing a bag, and then going back to the game.

Paul:  What time should I meet you there. We’re gonna meet out in the parking lot there, a little tailgate, maybe?

Tracy:  We will be tailgating. We will be at the Athletic Department. My Sister-in-law runs the performance coaching department for the Athletes, so she’s got a great spot. We’ll be there. We can talk about it later. I’m trying to plan what I’m going to wear. Word has it, it’s going to be 36 degrees when the sun goes down.

Paul:  Somebody told me it snowed, or it has the potential to snow. I can’t believe that.

Tracy:  I hope not. I hope not. It’s only October.

Paul:  Matt doesn’t understand what we’re talking about.

Matt:  I am totally fine with this. There is nothing better than a home game with your alma mater, especially the night games. The Huskies have been playing more night games given the PAC12 TV schedule, and, boy, Husky stadium under the lights, I bet the big house under the lights is going to be awesome and quite rocking this weekend with a big match up with Wisconsin, but Tracy, really, I wanted to get you on for a while, and I think the impetus to try to get you on now was really related to the presentation you gave at Dream Force a couple of weeks ago and the work you been doing to really upgrade and migrate the marketing technology that you have, in particular moving from Marketo to Pardot.

Tracy:  Yeah.

Matt:  And I don’t want to make this about Marketo versus Pardot, but I think, knowing what you guys went through, a lot of companies, they shutter just thinking about making such massive changes in their marketing technology sec, particularly the tools that provide the foundational elements. We are going to share your slides and your presentation on the blog and in the notes of this, as well. I know this is an audio podcast so we don’t have those visuals today, but wanted to have you highlight some of the objectives and rationale that you used to make that kind of a switch internally.

Tracy:  Yeah, and you are right, Matt, that changing out marketing automation, is rather terrifying, honestly, and it makes me think a little bit. I was a big bugs bunny fan growing up, and you might remember the road runner cartoons where the track is being laid on the train, ahead of the train. Right? They’re jamming along and jamming along. It’s that’ sort of idea that you don’t get to take a pause for 8 weeks or a quarter and help out. You’re still doing marketing while your switching the system that’s actually running the show. I think that’s why a lot of people are really fearful of it.

I did do a session at Dream Force. There were several hundred people in it, and everyone one of them was, when you asked for a raise of hands if you considering switching to something? They’d answer yes, but everyone of them was just not sure about how to even start thinking about it. That was what my presentation was about. It was called five steps to a seamless marketing automation or Pardot migration, in this case.

I’m happy to talk about what our situation was and why we started thinking about switching, and then how we went about it, because I think having a good software selection process was really, really important. Not everybody has a lot of experience with it. Right? We have experience buying smaller things that we might be wanting to add to our stacks, but buying something that’s really monumental, and often a six figure investment. It’s pretty daunting.

Matt:  Well, six figure investment just for the software let alone all the work that’s going to go in to make the migration and all the content work that’s going to go into it, as well. Yeah. You’re right. I’d love to step back and, knowing that technology is not your strategy, it is the implementer of your strategy, would love to get a little insight into your thought process and what the strategy was that caused you to rethink whether you had the right tools. Curious to hear, sort of, behind the curtain a little what was going on.

Tracy:  Behind the curtain, there was really kind of two things that were going on. My campaign team, or rather our demand gen team, has been changing requirements. We are supporting both a traditional inbound volume marketing campaign strategy for our small business sales team  deal sizes of 25k and 45 day long cycles usually coming inbound through a variety of techniques that are common to most listeners, but, in addition to that, we had embarked on an ABM based strategy, account based strategy for our enterprise sellers, where it’s 9 months, six figure deal, with a very large buying group. We have a lot of learnings about our particular buying group that we figured out that, on average, 34 people were interacting with our content before a six figure deal was signed.

We were really stretching the boundaries of what we had been able to do, and we were two years into the ABM at the start of this year. We had quite a fair amount of experience and were running up into, just, different limitations on what we were able to do. The campaign team was saying, “Hey. We need to be able to create campaigns faster. We need to be less dependent on marketing off.” We were finding that, on the other side of the house, there’s a small marketing ops team that’s doing a lot of the backend work, and we were finding that with what we had in place, our campaign guys could come up with a really great strategy, and good idea, and good content, and they could map out the work flow, but when it came time to actually programming it in the tool, they had to have their work checked, right, which was a big pain for them. It slowed them down, and, honestly, is below the pay grade of our marketing ops team.

We were finding ourselves in this weird conundrum where we needed more independence for the campaign team, and we wanted to free up our marking ops to do more sophisticated stuff around data strategy and cleanup, and around using intent information, and a variety of other things.

On the campaign side, it was really about self-sufficiency, faster campaign creations, more personalization in our ABM orchestration. Those things were the frustrations for the management side.

On the ops side, they’re obviously tired of being loaded up on with, “hey, can you check my work for the basic four set nurture”, but the lists are complicated. They were getting bogged down with that, but they were really, also, starting to get bogged down with other things, managing the assets and things like that.

We were starting to think, okay maybe we should look around. Maybe we should make a change, but I was super hesitant. You know? The unknown of it all. We had a ten year old in sense of our current marketing automation tool. It’s a little bit like, okay, the devil you know is better than the one you don’t.

We had a really terrific sales force account executive who just did what we want all of our accounting executives to do, made himself super useful. I jokingly call him the attentive new boyfriend. I felt like I was married to, you know, my existing marketing automation situation, but, then, in comes the attentive boyfriend, and, not only was he super helpful, but my, quote un quote, kids, my team actually liked him better than my husband.

Matt:  Oh, geez.

Tracy:  They started saying, “Hey. Let’s really take a look at this.” We really, kind of, went through three levels of checking to get this to work. First, it was our op guys needed to be happy. They really dug and looked underneath the covers to make sure that everything really was as integrated as Salesforce told us it was going to be.

I had a lot of skepticism about some of the messaging that was coming out of Salesforce at the time. Things like, we’re natively integrated, and it’s so much better than everybody else’s integration. To me, that was sort of a joke. Of course, marketing automation is integrated. Hotspot is integrated. Marketo is integrated. They’re all integrated. I didn’t really understand what that meant, and Salesforce has invested quite a lot in a product platform. It’s all one now. The objects are shared. You don’t have any of that sync issue that you have with any of the other tools and stuff.

Our marketing ops guys put it through the ringer, really liked what they saw, and then it was the campaigns team turn to say, “Okay. Out of the campaigns that we’re typically trying to do, is it going to be easier, or is it going to be quicker, faster, or are we going to be less reliant.” They just, honestly, fell in love with it. There’s a picture of it in my slide deck from Dream Force, it was just the money shot picture where we did our first campaign, just a basic product launch webinar. It wasn’t anything fancy, and in one view of what they call their engagement studio, you can see all the graphic stuff of what your flow is going to be for your campaign with conversion rates all along the way. And another tool that we have experience with, you had to go hunt that down in four different screens. Right? So all in one, really, really easy to use. That team was super happy.

The third part was really me, which was, “Hey, guys. I’m frustrated because I don’t have the insights I need and how our campaigns are performing at all, it’s just, how is our engagement with our accounts.” Account engagement was just something we were really struggling with being able to see. We spent a lot of time looking at what recording was possible. The B2B analytics tool from Salesforce was very powerful there.

Matt:  Awesome. We’re talking to Tracy Eiler today. She is the CMO of InsideView and is the midst of making a transition on the marketing automation platform side. Independent of who your favorites are or who you go with, I think just the process of going through that is just really interesting to me. We’re going to have to take a break here just in a couple of minutes, but I want to get a sense from you. How do you manage the people side of that internally, because, even if you sort of logically say, “We need to make a change for the better.” You’ve got people that are used to one system, that know what their job is coming in in the morning. Not only is their pain in making the transition, but there is pain in the transition.

Tracy:  Yeah.

Matt:  How do you help manage people through the change management and keeping morale high throughout that process as well.

Tracy:  That’s such a good question. You know, for me, consensus building is critical, and so pulling together as many people as possible early on, even the super junior ones that, you know, maybe not even put their finger on a marketing automation product, but they’re actually working on campaign, that sort of thing, just to educate them and collect requirements and really weigh whether we wanted to embark on a future or not.

That included things like, when the Salesforce team came in to present to us it was a huge room. I told Salesforce guys, “Look, my perception of your product is that it’s check box so that you can say that you had marketing automation. I don’t really think that it’s a robust product.” That was the reputation I thought that that product had, but if you want to bring my team lunch, we’ll meet with you for an hour. I brought 20 people into the room. I wanted them to be educated, and some of that is, when you’re early in your career, you’ve never been involved in a meeting like that before. It really started with a broad exposure, and then we started narrowing it down into work streaming, and, kind of, looking around the table saying, “Okay. Do you agree we should move forward? Yes. Okay. Do you guys agree we should move forward? Yes.” and so on. That was very, very important. We can talk more about other check ins that we did, but that … I think the broad exposure is very important.

Matt:  Yeah. I want to come back and talk a little bit more about that, because I think any kind of transition, and kind of migration, and improvements in marketing today, given the complexity of the buy in journey, it requires thinking through the cultural changes those represent as well.

We got to take a quick break. We got to pay some bills. We’ll be right back with more with Tracy Eiler on Sales Pipeline Radio.


Matt:  Thank you for listening to Sales Pipeline Radio. If you like what your hearing today, if you’re also in an organization thinking about making a change with some of your marketing technology or you’re, sort of, looking to make sure you’re doing those migrations well, definitely encourage you to check out this entire episode. Feel free to share it with your team. It will be available up on on demand here in a couple of days.

Coming up next couple of weeks we got some great guest. Next week, Sales Pipeline Radio, Laura Vogel. If you are in B2B and have been to any events in the last few years, you’ve probably been impacted by Laura Vogel’s work. She’s one of the best event marketers, event producers in the B2B industry. We’re going to be talking about what’s working and what’s not and best practices for event marketing. Then, coming up, we got Jeff Blount, who is the author of several books on sales strategy including the most recent book, Objections. And then the kind of sales himself, Jeffrey Gitomer is going to join us in the beginning of November.

But today, more time with Tracy Eiler. She is the CMO at InsideView. She is the author of her own book, Aligned to Achieve, highly encourage you checking that out on Amazon. Tracy, we’ve been talking about requirements that go into why you make a marketing automation transition. You talked about gathering requirements and thinking through strategy and needs from demand gen and from marketing ops. Curious, how is the sales team involved in that process, if at all? What is the sales team input been, either passively or actively, in helping to make technology decisions?

Tracy:  Yeah. That’s a good question. Our sales team was not super involved. They certainly were aware. My sales peers certainly were aware of what we were doing, because we needed folks to understand that it was a risky time for marketing and that we needed to be project managing only the most important things during that migration. Our sales ops guy, however, was very involved. Sales ops, Marketing Ops, work hand in hand, and my colleague, Franklin, who I’m talking about was very, very involved.

He really led the negotiation with me as the executive sponsor, and, of course, one of things you have to think about when you’re doing this kind of migration is CRM vendors and Marketing Automation Vendors have gotten very smart on how to extract more money from all of us. They’re pricing by, record size, as an example, so if you have a big loaded database, you’re going to spend more. Clean up your data, it goes down but, when your renewals up, they all have this 7% uplift in price year to year. I call it the big, which is not how they refer to it, but that’s how I think about it.

We were looking at our renewal contracts at the same time for CRM and marketing automation, so our timing is really good. Both vendors were coming back to us with a 7% uplift. Right? 14% more money on top of what we’re already spending for no new functionality. Right? Just the same thing. You can use that to your advantage, obviously, because in Salesforce’s case, if we were going to consolidate our spending over there, we didn’t have to pay that big. There was some other negotiation that we were able to do that was a good deal for us, for InsideView.

I would also say that we did a good job of really structuring the contract and did a three year deal, for example, and that help lock in terms and so on, but that’s something that I think is a big blocker. I’ve been doing some networking and calls for Salesforce with other CMOs and, in fact, helped them run their first CMO council at Dream Force. There was probably a third non-marketing automation customers in the room. There was about 30 people, 20 of them were product customers, and the rest were not. They were thinking about switching, but they were all very terrified. When am I supposed to plan this? Right? Let’s just say you have an annual contract and it’s up in two months, it’s too late.

Matt:  Yeah.

Tracy:  You can’t decide two months in advance. Part of what I tried to do in my presentation, that you guys will post, is really talk about what kind of timeline you need and work back from that renewal at least six months so that you have enough time to fully vet the alternative, if you’re going to switch, and then build a good plan. In our case, we had an 8 week migration. We thought it would take 12 so that’s what we had planned for, but certain parts went fast than expected so we were able to cut over more quickly, which worked out great for us.

We had a good partner involved. We had the right people on our team involved, to your point about people. We had very strict rules, and we were able to even launch a product in the middle of all of this migration.

Matt:  Wow.

Tracy:  I was pretty happy with how it worked, but the planning part is really, really important, otherwise you’re going to miss the window.

Matt:  Yep. Got a few more minutes here with Tracy Eiler, and I’m curious, you’re kind of in a unique position, because you are marketing a product in the marketing technology sec for many companies, as well. Having gone through this process yourself, migrating from what tool to another and having experienced, what you said, was you had a good experience with your sales rep and the process over all. How is that experience and the methiodals you used, how does that change the way you approach the buying process you’re managing, either from a marketing and, or from the sales standpoint.

Tracy:  Yeah. That’s a very good point. I learn a lot by observation, and I felt like Salesforce did a very good job at proactively handling objections, but also doing things like we all know we’re supposed to do, especially when we’re approaching a buying group. They really armed me, Franklin, other people on my team with champion information, competitive information, good check list on things we should be thinking about, deep technical specs that we could run by our field ops team and even deeper into the org, if we needed to. That just made it easier for us, right, to make the decision.

Then, in turn, I look back in our own processes and kind of say, “Alright. Are we doing those things for our buyers? Are we making it easier for them?” One of the big things at this Gartner Conference that I’m at is buyer enablement, is kind of what their calling it, and buyers buy the way they want to buy, and us marketers come up with a buyer journey, but that’s how we want to sell. They really turned it around and said, “Think about how your buyers are going to buy”, and, especially, in a conflict sale, there’s a lot of consensus building, there’s a lot of people, and it’s not a linear process. You really have to arm your buyer with as much information as you can.

Sales and Marketing is a continuous loop. It’s not like marketing delivers the qualified lead and then leads the process. There’s all sorts of things on our website and other things that we need to do more transparently in the buying cycle. This software purchase for me, but also this conference, has given me a lot of good things to think about.

Matt:  Love it. Just a couple more minutes, probably last question here for Tracy Eiler. You mentioned being at the Gartner Conference. I really appreciate you stepping out for a couple of minutes and grabbing some time with us here. She’s got a whole presentation on all the strategy, all the process, all the best practices around her marketing automation transition that we will post on our site and in the comb outs. Tracy, curious, as you look at 2019, you’ve now made a big platform migration. What are some of the other tools and capabilities that you think are going to be critical for InsideView or that you think are critical for BW CMOs and marketing groups overall.

Tracy:  Yeah. We’re really looking at intent signals from accounts and doubling down on that has a way to help us both prioritize new logo accounts but also penetrate our existing customers more broadly. We have a big customer base, and many departments, and many other GOs that we can sell to. That, I think, would be the main thing.

The other one is, we moved the SVR Field Installment Organization into marketing a year ago. Our team has really grown quite a lot. In fact, I’d love to get a quick plug to SV Academy, Silicone Valley Academy, which is a new organization, about a year old, that is turning out SVR ready people that go through 300 hours of training on systems, but also on SVR job skills. We just hired 3 SVR’s to join our team. We’re up to 10 now. These folks are fantastic. They’re hitting the ground running. I’m really looking at the technologies that are going to help them. For example, we brought in the outreach tool for our SVRs to help with their orchestration and work and going after accounts. We’re currently spreading that deployment into our customer success organization and our account managers so that we can really have an integrated view of every touch point to a customer and that they have more visibility, too. Right?

Matt:  Yep.

Tracy:  So they know who’s interacting with our content and so on. So really, those two things are a big focus.

Matt:  Love it. Tracy, we’re going to let you go. Thank you so much, again, for grabbing some time with us today, really excited about the details you’re able to share, and we will, of course, share a lot more of that detail from your presentation at Dream Force on our column notes.

This presentation will be available on here in a couple of days. It’ll be up on, on demand. You’ll be able to check that out, and definitely check out Tracy’s book as well, Aligned to Achieve, if you’re working on sales and marking alignment, just a great book that she wrote a couple of years ago and still highly relevant today for a lot of organizations.

We are out of time. Thank you very much for joining us. We’ll be here next week, every week at 11:30 Pacific, 2:30 Eastern for another episode from my great producer, Paul.

This is Matt Heinz. Thanks for joining us again on Sales Pipeline Radio.