By Matt Heinz, President of Heinz Marketing
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We were thrilled this last time to talk to our own Josh Baez, Engagement Manager at Heinz Marketing in an episode called, “From Great Ideas to Complex Execution: Taking ABM from 10,000 feet to the Ground Level“. Josh is a plant dad. He is a Death Cab for Cutie super fan. We talk about how to take things from strategy into execution. We talk about doing it the right way, taking the time to think through all the details. And we also touch on sales and marketing collaboration.. this and a lot more!
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Matt Heinz: Thank you for joining us today on Sales Pipeline Radio. We are joining you live on the Funnel Media Radio Network as always the 2:30 eastern, 11:30 Pacific. For those of you listening during your work way, thank you very much. Work day, thank you very much for joining us. If you’re listening on the podcast, whether this is your first episode or 200th episode, we appreciate having you. We have streaked by the 100,000 user level and we continue to grow our audience. It is amazing and humbling and I’m so thankful for everyone listening. So thank you very much for joining us. And if you want to catch up, or if you missed one Sunday and you want to listen to any other episodes, you can catch every episode of Sales Pipeline Radio, past, present and future at salespipelineradio.com.
We are featuring each week some of the best and brightest minds in B2B sales and marketing and this week is no different on a very special episode of Sales Pipeline Radio. We have Josh Baez, he is a client engagement manager here at Heinz Marketing. He’s been with us for over four years, which in and of itself is amazing, Josh, the fact that you have stuck with us and that we have, that you have not given up on this, this great training.
Josh Baez: I’ve been living in the IT closet all this time.
Matt Heinz: But no, excited to have Josh here. And we’ve had Josh on the program before a couple of times talking about a variety of topics. But what I want to do today is talk about the difference between thousand foot level and ground level, quite honestly. I think there are so many, and I was talking with our client about this the other day, there’s so many frameworks, there’s so much research out there about like what you could do. There’s benchmarks and frameworks and strategic guidance and lots of ideas of what campaigns can look like. But I think, and when I was at Microsoft, we spend a lot of time right in PowerPoint decks and you’re not going to execute anything off a PowerPoint deck, like maybe moving strategy into execution, moving vision into actual results requires a focus on the right work.
And so I want to spend some time talking about that. And Josh, I mean I know specifically with clients you’ve been working with, we’ve been refining this process. Talk a little bit about what it takes to take a good idea an executive sponsor comes into the room, waves their arms says here’s what you want to do. Your CMO comes in, has an idea, they leave and expect it to get published. They expect it to get executed. What are some of, we’ll get to sort of places where it doesn’t work. But talk first about what does it take to do that well?
Josh Baez: Yeah. First of all, Matt, thank you for having me on the third time, I’m officially a recurring guest. I think at this point the recurring backup, as we call myself.
Matt Heinz: That’s not really fair, that makes it sound like we don’t want you here. Although in truth I’m a big SNL fan. A couple more times you’re going to be in a five timers club. We’ll get you a jacket, we’ll get you the whole deal. It’ll be fine.
Josh Baez: Well to answer your question, I think that the hardest part about turning strategy into tactics is really the fact that you know, you really need to make sure that what you’re doing can actually be implemented. It’s one thing to just say, “Oh I want an ABM program.” Right? But then it’s another thing to actually think through, well what are the individual pieces that actually make up that ABM program, and how can we actually turn those pieces into executable-like tactics. And so the way that we’ve started doing it, and this is a framework, like you said, it’s constantly been refined over the years that I’ve been here and, and even before then. And I feel like we’ve come to a pretty good place with how we turn these strategies into more tactical things.
One of them is that we like to build out the approach that we use. So based on the theme or the concept that we’re going for understand, well what’s sales involvement in this? What’s marketing’s involvement in this? What are the different collaborative activities that each of the teams are doing? And then from there we can then determine, OK, well what makes sense here? Is it outbound marketing? Are we doing inbound marketing? Is this a direct mail play? Is this going to be a one-to-one sales approach play? And then from there, you can continue to kind of refine that and dig down deeper to really better understand who’s responsible for what. When are these different initiatives going to take place. And then you know, from there you can better determine your next steps.
Matt Heinz: I love that. I mean there’s a lot of moving parts, right, when you get to execution, and I think knowing what some of those are up front is really important to making them work. When you first started answering that, you said you’d talk about having these grand visions and making sure that there are things you can execute. And I think sometimes up front we don’t necessarily know that, right, and I think we don’t necessarily want to stifle the creative process. We don’t want to stifle the brainstorming up front and saying like, what if we did this? What if we tried that. Just because we don’t yet know if we can execute it. But my question to you is not about how to brainstorm, that if you take an idea and figure out how to execute it, if it doesn’t work or it’s too complicated or simply isn’t possible, what’s that process and how do you sort of create some realistic expectations, with your client or with your boss on what could actually get implemented either at all or within profitable economics of the pipeline.
Josh Baez: I think that a lot of people typically come into a room for marketing and they have a list of campaign ideas. And that’s great. Like you can have as many ideas as you want. I don’t care if you have 10, 20, 30, you can tell me as many ideas as you want, but when it comes time to actually turn those into a plan, we need to really focus up. And I think that the way that you do that is you understand where’s the low hanging fruit? What opportunities do we have now that we can utilize and make the most of now?
Okay, you have an email marketing program. Well then outbound email sounds like a good way to do it. If you don’t have a re-targeting system for example, maybe retargeting isn’t in phase one, but it’s something that you guys can work towards. So I think that it’s a matter of understanding and acknowledging, what can you do now? And being okay with the fact that you might not be able to do something that you want to do in the next 30 days, but you can work towards that for the next 60 or 90.
Matt Heinz: Talking today on Sales Pipeline Radio with Heinz marketing client engagement manager, Josh Baez, he is a plant dad. He is a Death Cab for Cutie super fan. And we’re talking about how to take things from strategy into execution. You know, the other elements in doing that is time, right? So, you could have your CEO, your CMO come into the room, wave arms, and say this is why I want to try this. I want to get this out there. Let’s get this focused on, let’s get this done. Things never happen as fast as sometimes we want them to. I mean even internally as we get a little more sophisticated in how we manage Heinz Marketing. Like now I am the client and I’m like, why does it take this long? It’s not just because you’ve got all these draconian systems. It takes time to get this done right. Especially when you’re doing larger programs, more complex programs that have many layers of integration and complexity across sales and marketing, let alone across marketing channels.
Yeah, it also doesn’t help when you as a client, Matt, cancel a meeting without telling me. I mean, that’s great.
Matt Heinz: Yeah, let’s air all our dirty laundry on the episode here, josh that would be great.
Josh Baez: I think timing is obviously important. I’m someone who has, I need to work on this, I notoriously would err on doing things faster. I think that myself, like I know the level of work that I’m able to do in the level of time that I’m typically able to do it. But when you start working with a team and the larger that team grows, you need to start being aware of… How other people work, how other people time their different deliverables and how they integrate with the rest of the program. And I think that in terms of timing, it’s probably better to err on the side of caution if you think that something typically takes, you know, five days to do, adding that little extra wiggle room to make that six or seven days, even, can make or break a product of production schedule. And I mean it’s always better to deliver early anyways. And so if you can set that expectation up front that something like this typically takes between seven to 10 days, at least you can have that expectation outline before you start going into the tactics.
Matt Heinz: What are some of the components? I mean let’s get really tactical here. We know when you think about, okay, we’ve got a great idea, we’ve got a plan, it’s going to take X amount of days, X amount of weeks to get it to execution. Are there certain elements of those programs that take longer than others? Like if you’re looking and your boss comes and says, how do you condense this? Are there certain primary culprits that become the real critical path and the things that really create the most longevity or take the most time to get. Campaigns from concept to reality.
Josh Baez: I think, and this is something that a lot of organizations, including ours, deal with on every kind of campaign, and it’s the need for content and it’s the need for messaging. And I think that a lot of organizations will make the mistake of thinking, “Oh, well let’s just launch this campaign. We can do it, like we have the resources to do it, let’s just launch this campaign.” But they forget about the key elements of that campaign being, “Oh, do we actually have contents to offer? Do we have something meaningful that the audience can actually engage with? Do we have the right messaging for this audience? Do we have, are we talking to them in a relevant way that’s actually meaningful to them, or are we just selling our product?”
And then, do we even know who our audience is? Like we might say, “Oh I want to target this industry.” And it’s like, okay, well that’s great but do we have emails for them? Do we even know who these people are? Do we even know what kind of titles we want to go for? There are so many kind of subsequent paths that you can go on for each of these and having a really solid foundation of who your target audience is, what your messaging is and what your content is can really impact the rest of your entire program. Like it lets you be smarter, it lets you act faster, it lets you be more strategic in that way.
Matt Heinz: Campaign success or fail in the details, right? I mean you think about like, I don’t know about you Josh, but like in 11 years of doing this, if I had a nickel for every time I had a client or even a prospect, say, “It’s just an email, give me five minutes, I’ll write the email, we’ll get it out.”
And I think, you know, a professional marketer will say, “Okay, so what are you going to say? And why does the prospect care about that? And by the way, who is it going to go to and do you have accurate up to date contact information for them? Is it going to get delivered? Is it going to look good? Are you going to spell check it? Is anyone going to do quality control to make sure he didn’t screw something up inadvertently accidental?” Which we all do all the time with emails that we just write in outlook to each other. Right? And I don’t mean to get into sort of rapid fire mode just to sort of make anyone feel bad that says, “I can write an email in five minutes.” Sure you can. But as Mark Twain once said, “If you’d given me more time, I would’ve written a shorter letter.” I mean, sometimes it’s worth taking more time to get it right.
When you send out something, when your prospects or customers get content from your marketing from you, that is a representation of your brand. It is a representation of your professionalism. And every one of those touch points has an impact. The positive impacts have an incremental benefit. You know, incremental growth in benefits and results, but you just, you screw something up, it erases an awful lot of that that good karma. So it’s important to get that stuff done right.
All right, we got to take a break, pay some bills. We’ll be back with more with Josh Baez, talking about taking campaigns from strategy to execution. You’re listening to Sales Pipeline, Radio.
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Paul: Okay, we’ve given Matt time enough to flip the burgers over and to refill the glasses. So let’s pick up the conversation here.
Matt Heinz: You think he’s just a party up here all the time, Paul? That we’re just enjoying ourselves.
Paul: I’m hoping that you’re going to share something with me, cause I’ve eaten all the beer nuts today, I’ve had all the pretzels and I’m hungry. I’m ready for some, I know you’re giving me good substantial food for thought, but I need some food for the body here as well.
Matt Heinz: This Saturday is my wife’s birthday, and what she really wants to do is just hang out at home, relax. And her request for food was chicken wings and cheesecake.
Matt Heinz: So we’re doing chicken wings and cheese cake on Saturday, and then I’m basically just going to run all day on Sunday. Basically just to sort of get that back out of my system.
Paul: There you go.
Matt Heinz: All right, well thanks again for joining us, coming back to us on Sales Pipeline Radio. We’ve got Josh Baez today. He’s our client engagement manager here at Heinz Marketing. We’re talking about moving programs from idea and strategy into execution. We’ve been talking about doing it the right way, taking the time to think through all the details, and it’s one thing to say, “Okay, I’m sending an email out,” right? And you can say, “Okay, we are sending an email next Tuesday.” That is one channel, and maybe one piece of communication.
So getting that right and checking all the boxes there to get that right and do it well is one thing. But what if we’re talking about a body of work campaign? What if we’re talking about various channels that are integrated together? How do you actually coordinate the orchestration of all those different channels together, just within marketing? And we’ll talk about sales and marketing collaboration here in a second, but just within marketing channels, what are some of your best practices for getting that coordinated and orchestrated well?
Josh Baez: Yeah it’s tough. It’s not an easy orchestration to do. I think that, with marketing teams, there needs to be, I mean everyone knows about the sales and marketing alignment need. But there’s an even greater need for the people within the own marketing organization to be aligned. If there’s even one person who’s a little bit ambiguous on what they’re doing and why they’re doing it, it can cause a whole, kind of like spiraling effect on the team, on the program.
And so having that upfront communication and alignment is really key for that. Making sure that people understand what they’re working on, what they’re responsible for, how the tactics that they’re planning play a role in the larger program, that stuff is really important. And it helps to orchestrate that when you build it all out. You say, “Okay, well we want these marketing touches to go here. And we want these inbound touches to go here. And we want these direct mail pieces to launch on these dates.” And if you can build a grander picture of everything that’s going on in marketing, you’ll have a much easier time. Not only making sure that your team is aligned, but when it comes time to eventually communicate that stuff outside of the marketing organization, you’ll also be able to more easily show the work that you’re doing in a more meaningful way.
Matt Heinz: Well, there’s a wide variety of tools that you can use to sort of drive that level of orchestration. I think one thing that we’ve developed internally is what we affectionately call it, the Purple Grid. And it is basically a really complicated spreadsheet that looks at audiences and channels and campaign flights. And so it actually ends up being a very, very useful tool for being able to understand what’s happening when. Not only for clients and others internally to see it, but also to make adjustments, right. As things take longer. Things go earlier. This part worked really well, so let’s keep it going.
If anyone would like to see a copy of the Purple Grid, email us. I mean you could literally just email Josh, email@example.com. So okay, so there’s campaign coordination across multiple channels, and then there’s coordination with the sales organization. So even if you don’t have a whole bunch of marketing channels going, I think this is the piece a lot of companies just either forget or missed or just aren’t willing to even go get into. I don’t think of sales as a marketing channel, but your prospect isn’t thinking, “Well this is my sales time, this is my marketing time and so it’s okay that the message is different.”
Integration of sales and marketing efforts is, is really, really helpful and it actually has been proven to drive greater velocity and conversion rate and yield of programs. Doing that though, when it’s not just sort of coordinating digital platforms or campaigns, doing that where you’re coordinating with people across departments is a challenge in and of itself. What have you found most useful and successful in doing that?
Josh Baez: Yeah I think that that comes down to a metric discussion more than anything. If sales doesn’t buy in to what marketing is doing, one way to help facilitate that engagement with sales is to really define what metrics we can expect to bring in. So I think that the way that we’ve been starting to think about metrics, Matt, is in three different ways. You have your campaign level metrics you have, those are more of like what people are calling vanity metrics. You have your marketing performance metrics, which are more about how are leads being engaged at the top and middle of the funnel. And then you have your revenue metrics, which are metrics that more directly impact sales, they more directly impact the organization.
And so if you can kind of tie in all of those kinds of metrics together under your campaign umbrella, I think that you’ll be able to better understand where marketing plays a role, where sales plays a role, and where the handoff is between sales and marketing to better integrate between the two.
Matt Heinz: Just wrapping up here in a few more minutes with Josh Baez. He’s one of our client engagement managers here at Heinz Marketing.
All the answers you’ve given so far, do they change if we’re doing account-based work, or if we’re doing something to enterprise organizations or selling a small business? Is there a different way that you approach execution and sort of driving and managing execution for one type of sale or one type of audience versus another?
Josh Baez: I don’t think so. I mean I think that really these are principles that we base all of our campaign work around. The way that I like to do it with, whether it’s ABM, whether it’s just a general go-to-market strategy, I like to use our Seven Stages of Predictable Pipeline to help kind of organize the way that we do things.
So we want to understand kind of like what I said before, we want to understand our target audience, we want to understand our messaging, we want to understand the different channels that we’re using on both sales and marketing. And then we want to be able to integrate those together and make sure that people are on the same page. That we’re talking about the same thing, that sales isn’t just its own arm of the organization, but sales and marketing are a single continuation of the customer journey. Because in the end it’s all about the customer. It’s all about the user experience.
Matt Heinz: I’m going to take it a little left turn here and ask an unrelated question. So we’re ending summer, it’s about to become fall, and if you know anything about Josh Baez, his excitement is just going to increase day to day, week to week for the rest of the year. Josh is, I mentioned he likes Death Cab for Cutie, but he is a Christmas super fan, and as the weather gets cooler and as we start to see more candles, we smell more pine around.
So I’m going to put you on the spot here, and we’ve got multiple holiday traditions that are celebrated here at Heinz Marketing. What should we be doing this year that’s maybe a little different? What should we be doing? Cause we got plenty of time to play in that, right? It’s not even, we haven’t even taken down our fall decorations. There’s no Halloween stuff at our house. Costco may have Christmas trees, but there’s none of that at our house yet. So we got time. What should we be doing in an office space to just really lean in and celebrate the year, celebrate the season?
Josh Baez: Oh my goodness. Well this is, wow. This is truly on the spot. Let’s see. Okay, I’m just going to list ideas right off the top of my head. Oh, there you go. Drinking, definitely. No, that’s right. That’s very true. I think that drinking is probably the number one thing that you can do to celebrate. Second to that, let’s just pump up the holiday music. Whatever you celebrate, I consider the holidays just festive times from November through January 1st. And let’s be honest though, I’m celebrating now. I’m ready for October at least. Definitely for the fall.
Matt Heinz: I’m with you on that. And I usually, I think I’ve said this before on social channels, once we get into October, it’s Halloween time. But yeah, I’ve got a lot of travel already planned for October and I’m going to be secretly listening to my Christmas music on the plane. Some of that music is so phenomenal. Why do we limit ourselves to less than a month’s time?
Josh Baez: That’s what I’m saying.
Matt Heinz: Yeah. It’s just not right. So the question now is Paul, what do you think the over-under is? Especially now that I brought this up, what’s the over-under on when Josh is going to haul the office Christmas tree out and get it set up?
Paul: I think it’s coming sooner than you think now here. I think you just opened the door.
Matt Heinz: Well it’s pacific time, we always record this at 11:30 so it’s lunchtime. So I think I know what Josh might be doing on his lunch break today.
Paul: Yeah, I think so. I just want to shoot you guys though, because I kill myself every time the music starts too early. It should be a law that said you can’t start until after Thanksgiving, but they started.
Matt Heinz: I’m not quite where Josh is, but I’m not going to make everyone else listen to Jingle Bells in October. But if I want to sit in 16D on the way back from whatever, and put on my headphones and just expose it to myself…
Paul: You do it. You watch Charlie Brown’s Christmas all you want beforehand, just don’t force us to do it.
Matt Heinz: You be you. All right, speaking of you, thank you for listening to a very special episode of Sales Pipeline Radio. In all seriousness, I think were some really, really good feedback and advice from Josh on just being really focused and operational, and being intentional, and being realistic about how to execute programs.
And if you’d like to share this with other colleagues on your team, if you’d like to force your CMO to listen to this, to understand why things take some time. You will find the replay of this episode at salespipelineradio.com and in a couple of days, and next week we’ll have an edited transcript of this up on heinzmarketing.com as well.
Matt Heinz: I’ve got a lot of great guests coming up over the next few weeks, so make sure you continue to join us. But until then, for my great producer, Paul, this is Matt Heinz. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Paul: Well ho-ho-ho you have you been listening to another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio. It’s Christmas in September on the Funnel Radio Network.
Sales Pipeline Radio is sponsored and produced by Heinz Marketing on the Funnel Radio Channel. I interview the best and brightest minds in sales and Marketing. If you would like to be a guest on Sales Pipeline Radio send an email to Sheena.