By Matt Heinz, President of Heinz Marketing

It’s hard to believe it’s been about three years ago already that we started Sales Pipeline Radio.  It’s live every Thursday at 11:30 a.m. Pacific. It’s just 30 minutes long, fast-paced and full of actionable advice, best practices and more for B2B sales & marketing professionals. We feature the brightest and best minds in B2B.

We cover a wide range of topics, with a focus on sales development and inside sales priorities heading into and throughout the year. You can listen to full recordings of past shows at and subscribe on iTunes.

I am beyond excited and humbled to share this episode called “Learning from the King: Sales Lessons & Musings from Jeffrey Gitomer. He is the King of Sales. If you’re in sales, he is a household name. He literally wrote The Little Red Book of Selling and has published a number of different books. He is the author of the recently published … in fact, published last week … came out, Truthful Living: The First Writings of Napoleon Hill.

Listen in or read the full transcript below:

I recognized that you cannot be a great sales person until you become a great person. Those are the benchmarks. You can’t become a great dad, until you become a great person … or a great mom, until you become a great person … or a great secretary, until you become a great person. Whatever it is that you’re looking to do, you have to be a person before you become an it. And attitude and beliefs are some of the fundamentals in that process. Very few sales courses teach you about self-confidence. They’re trying to teach you some technique that pisses other people off. Find the pain. What’s your pain? The answer is, “None of your business.” So, stop tryin’ to extract things outta me. Why don’t you try and find the pleasure?

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Matt:  Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio. Thanks so much for joining us, again. If you’re joining us live on the Funnel Media Radio Network, thanks so much for everyone joining us during the workday. We are here every week, Thursday, at 11:30 Pacific, 2:30 Eastern. If you’re joining us on the podcast, thanks so much for joining us. I think we’re up over 40,000 subscribers now on the podcast. Very excited to have all of you joining us and very humbled by all of you that are joining us on a regular basis. Every episode of Sales Pipeline Radio past, present, and future is always available at

Each week we are featuring some of the best and brightest minds in sales and marketing. Today is absolutely no different. I am beyond excited and humbled to have joining us today Jeffrey Gitomer. He is the King of Sales. If you’re in sales, he is a household name. He literally wrote The Little Red Book of Selling and has published a number of different books. He is the author of the recently published, in fact, published last week came out, Truthful Living: The First Writings of Napoleon Hill. Jeffrey, thanks so much for joining us today.

Jeffrey:  It’s a doggone pleasure. If you want some humor, you could say, “We’ve got the best minds in sales ever. We couldn’t find any of ’em today, so we have Jeffrey Gitomer on the show.”

Matt:  Self-deprecating, as always.

Jeffrey:  Yeah. I love self-deprecating. I must also say, now that I know you’re from Seattle, should we ever get together, we would go to Anthony’s Pier 66 down in the harbor and we could fight over the check and you could win.

Matt:  I’d be happy to the next time you’re here, we’ll definitely check that out. What’s amazing is, you go down by the water front and there are a ton of seafood restaurants. Most of them are tourist seafood restaurants that any local would never bother to go into because it’s fish for twice the price and it was caught like six weeks ago. But Anthony’s is one of those real treats where it really is very good food. Very fresh. Very good. Not right on the waterfront. It’s definitely a gem.

Jeffrey:  Yeah. I’m downstairs and I order the biggest Dungeness crab.

Matt:  How big is that, usually?

Jeffrey:  Couple pounds.

Matt:  Okay. That’s a pretty good size.

Jeffrey:  Yeah. It is a good size. Every once and while they have a huge one.

Matt:  My other tip for you and for anyone coming to Seattle, you want to go when you want to watch them throw the fish. You go to Pike’s Market and that little spot where they throw the fish. It actually is very fun and that’s all fresh fish. That stuff was all alive the day before kind of thing.

Jeffrey:  However, as you’re looking at the fish group, go to the right, down the market, and the first fish place you come to on the left has better, cheaper fish.

Matt:  I was just going to say, you turn 45 degrees to your right and there are two or three fish places there that aren’t nearly as busy, but that’s where the locals go. It’s the same fish. Half the price. You’ve just got to know where you’re going.

Speaking of where we’re going…

Jeffrey:  I want to begin with the best upsell lesson I ever got and it was at that Pike’s Market. I’m walking’ through the market and it was the summertime and I said, “I’m going to get some Rainier cherries and eat while we’re walking’ around.” So, I go to this lady’s … all she had is fruit. I said, “Give me like a half a pound of Rainier cherries.” She puts them into a bag and weighs them, but the bag was kind of oversized. She shows them to me and says, “Are you sure that’s enough?” And I said, “All right. Give me a pound.” And she does the same damn thing. She looks at it and then she looks at me and shows me the bag and she goes, “Are you sure that’s enough?” I said, “All right. Give me two pounds.” She gets me from a half a pound to two pounds. I’m walking’ down the aisle and I thought, “I wonder if she does that to everybody?” So, I run back to the booth and I go, “Tell me about the deal here that you just did on me. Do you do that to everybody?” She goes, “Oh, yeah.” Everybody who comes to that place gets, “Are you sure that’s enough?” How simple could that upsell be? Are you sure that’s enough? Five words. And with that, she got a $4 sale to a $16 sale.

Matt:  I hope they understand the difference between doing that and then, if you go to a bar and they say, “Can I make it a double for $1 more?” I think there’s a psychological difference between the two.

Jeffrey:  Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. Because this woman is actively involved. She’s showing you what you bought. It is a side show to the way she did it. I was so impressed, I wrote about it. I use that as a lesson in upselling that most sales people don’t upsell enough. They have no concept of asking for more. My father taught me the philosophy in 1974 of upselling. He said, “Son, when their wallets open, empty it.” I thought, “Oh, cool, Pop. Okay. I’ll do that.”

Matt:  There’s a psychological difference between saying, “Would you like more?” and “Are you sure that’s enough?”

Jeffrey:  Oh, without a doubt.

Matt:  They’re very different.

Jeffrey:  She’s challenging me to think of the answer myself. When you go to a 7-11, the guy says, “Is there anything else?” Like, “No, there’s nothing else.” I want a house and a car. But, if he said, “Did you get a popsicle? Did you get a candy bar? Did you get a bottle of water?” At least a suggestion would make me think about is there something else.

Matt:  Is part of that based on the fact that when you’re ordering the cherries, you don’t actually know how much is enough? You don’t actually know how hungry am I. How much is a half a pound.

Jeffrey:  I’m just walking’ around the market. A half a pound should do it. But she put it in an oversized bag. That’s the key. It looked there was nothing frickin’ in there. So, the challenge that you have is, as a sales person, is your language conducive to buying? Not to selling. Is your language conducive to buying? When she said, “Are you sure that’s enough?” That made me get the answer because she could’ve said, “This doesn’t look like enough. You need more.” No, that’s enough. I got what I need.

Matt:  You know, it’s funny. I actually wrote about that this morning on LinkedIn. We get a lot of companies as we’re recording this. It’s the beginning of November and companies are, believe it or not, starting’ to think about New Year and sales kick off-

Jeffrey:  Oh, yeah.

Matt:  One of my pet peeves of sales kick offs is the content usually focuses on the product you want to sell and the sales process you want to follow. Very little time is devoted to the customer. Like, how they buy. How they think. What their psychology is. I mean, don’t ask them what keeps them up at night. Tell them what should be keeping them up at night and see where that goes.

Jeffrey:  Or at least show them what the opportunity is, just in case they are. And what keeps me up at night is none of your business.

Matt:  Right.

Jeffrey:  I don’t like fish questions. I don’t like Miss America questions. I was looking at your website yesterday and there’s a couple things I don’t quite understand. I was wondering if you could help me. Sure I can help you. I’m an expert at my website. That’s where I need to go other than what keeps you up at night. It’s a dumb question.

Matt:  We are blessed today to have with us the King of Sales, Jeffrey Gitomer. Who, if you’ve been in sales, hell, if you’ve been in marketing, you know this guy. You’ve read his books. It’s sitting on your shelf somewhere. Jeffrey, I do want to make sure we spend time talking about the new book as well, Truthful Living: The First Writings of Napoleon Hill, just published.

We were talking before we started recording about Napoleon Hill and Think and Grow Rich, which I read a long time ago. I should probably go back and read it again. There are certain fundamental books that aren’t really about sales and about marketing, but just help you be a better person. Help you have a better outlook on life. For me, Think and Grow Rich was one of those. Talk a little bit about, it sounds like that book was impactful for you in your life and career, as well.

Jeffrey:  It was. In 1972, when I read Think and Grow Rich, I was with a bunch of other sales guys and we did a four hour morning training every morning for a year. In that morning training, each person did a book report on one of the chapters from Think and Grow Rich. There’s only 15 chapters in the book, so we were going’ through the book every three weeks. That year allowed me to do it 10 times how many times I actually read the book. That gave me my positive attitude.

Well, fast forward several decades and I became friendly with the guy that runs the Napoleon Hill Institute and I said, “Hey, let me give something back to you guys. I’ll do your weekly email newsletter on one condition.” The guy goes, “What’s that?” I said, “That you never pay me a nickel.” And he goes, “Okay!” How do you say no to that?

So, I’ve been doing that for 15 years. A couple years ago, they found the original writings of Napoleon Hill, 20 years before Think and Grow Rich. It was hidden in a course called Truthful Advertising, where Napoleon Hill was teaching kids how to sell ads. After each one of the sales lessons, he wrote an After the Hill lesson with Mr. Hill and he wrote it on positive attitude and personal development. That was the foundation for writing Think and Grow Rich.

So, I edited out all the sales stuff and I kept in all the personal development stuff and that’s what created Truthful Living. And, it’s amazing. It’s totally amazing. Chapter one, just as an example, he starts out and says, “Success is up to you.” Oh, yeah, you’re right. And chapter two is Finish What You Start. And chapter three is How to Think. And chapter four is Imagination. I mean, these are fundamental pieces, but there’s a secret inside of them. I’m going to share with you what the secret is.

He takes four or five different words and puts them together. The secret is, making certain that you use them all in conjunction with one another, not just themselves. For example, he says, “Imagination, desire, enthusiasm, self-confidence, and concentration are the five most important words in the English language.” Now, think about that. He’s not saying, “Imagination, by itself, because if you have imagination and you have no desire, or you have no self-confidence, you’re going to keep it to yourself. Then, the glue in the five words, is concentration. Focus. This was written in 1917. There were no paved roads. There was no anything. A phone was like a rare commodity and you had to go through an operator to make a phone call. There was no television. There was hardly a radio. There was no distraction. Yet, Hill understood that concentration was the most important element in keeping your single purpose together.

Today, your phone dings more than it rings. You get notifications that your old high school boyfriend got fat. Or, you get notifications that you got a text or an email. It disrupts you. It takes you off your course. This is about how to find your focus. How to have your chief goal. How to maintain self-confidence, desire, enthusiasm, and imagination. There are 23 other lessons in this book that will do exactly the same thing. It’s an unbelievable book.

Matt:  We do a lot of work with inside sales teams, helping them improve efficiency and effectiveness. The underpinning of a lot of it is process and discipline. So, be able to stay focused. Someone asked me the other day, “How do you build a process that’s going to really sort of drive predictability and ensure that’s happening across the sales team?” And my answer was, “I can’t. Unless I actually have robots doing this work, the people doing the work have to dedicate themselves to that purposeful work. They have to dedicate themselves to the concentration and focus to get this work done.” I would imagine there’s a lot more people that believe in this, that listen to this, and would nod and say, “Yeah. That all makes sense.” But, will go back to the dings and the pings of their phone and ping pong across fire drills all day.

Jeffrey:  Exactly. If your attitude sucks, you can’t do a job right. And, you’re not going to even learn anything because you’re going to close your mind to it. Hill is just saying, “Hey, dude. Open up your mind. Recognize that it’s up to you. Recognize that stuff’s going to happen to you that’s not good, but those are blessings in disguise. And, if you just finish what you start, you’re going to win.” Most people don’t finish what they start. Most people quit way before it’s time to quit because they either needed the money or they got fired from their job or quit their job or whatever it was that they did, they stopped doing what was leading them to success, before they got there. Unbelievable to me.

Matt:  It seems to be, before you published this book, I mean, I looked at some of the stuff you published in the past, including your Little Gold Book of Yes Attitude. Clearly, this approach has been with you for a long time.

Jeffrey:  Oh, yeah. I recognized that you cannot be a great sales person until you become a great person. Those are the benchmarks. You can’t become a great dad, until you become a great person, or a great mom, until you become a great person, or a great secretary, until you become a great person. Whatever it is that you’re looking to do, you have to be a person before you become an it. And attitude and beliefs are some of the fundamentals in that process. Very few sales courses teach you about self-confidence. They’re trying to teach you some technique that pisses other people off. Find the pain. What’s your pain? The answer is, “None of your business.” So, stop trying’ to extract things out of me. Why don’t you try and find the pleasure? Because if we both like Dungeness crabs, or we’ve both eaten at Anthony’s Pier 66, immediately we know a lot about one another and we’re willing to talk about it even more.

Matt:  We’re going to have to take a quick break here and pay some bills. We’ll be right back. More with Jeffrey Gitomer, the author of the new book Truthful Living: The First Writings of Napoleon Hill. We’ll talk more about the book, talk about his podcast, talk a little bit more about where to eat when you’re coming’ to Seattle. We’ll be right back. Sales Pipeline Radio.

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Matt:  Welcome back to Sales Pipeline Radio. Wanna thank, again, our sponsor for this episode, If you are using G-mail and you want to have a very simple, but effective tool to track when your prospects are clicking and accessing your email and you want to be able to access that into your CRM and do that without a lot of bells and whistles, but do it very quickly, easily with a quick Chrome extension in G-mail. I want to thank the folks at If you go to and you use the coupon code Heinz, H-E-I-N-Z, you will get half off their product for life. So, thanks to the team there for-

Jeffrey:  And it comes with a bottle of ketchup!

Matt:  And you get a bottle of ketchup. It’s such a good deal! I will throw it in.

Did you know, Jeffrey, speaking to Jeffrey Gitomer today. He’s the King of Sales, author of numerous books, including the new book Truthful Living. This probably won’t surprise you now. When I was in fifth grade, I ran for student body treasurer of my elementary school. My campaign slogan was “57 Varieties of Honesty.”

Jeffrey:  Oh, that’s cool. That’s totally cool.

Matt:  I have absolutely no connection that I know of to the actual Heinz condiment company, but I’ve milked it for as much as I can, throughout my career.

Jeffrey:  Hell yeah. I’ll tell you something, they were one of the World’s Fair sponsors in 1939. You should look up the brochure. You can buy them for five or six bucks a pop. They’re beautiful.

Matt:  Really?

Jeffrey:  Oh, yeah. Just take a look. It might be something in there that you can use.

Matt:  That’s funny. My wife is a teacher and her maiden name is McDonald. I remember one of her students, when she told people she was getting’ married and what her name would be next year, they said, “Well, that makes sense. You got ketchup and hamburgers joining together.”

Jeffrey:  I don’t know what your business card is, but if it doesn’t look like the label on a ketchup bottle, something’s drastically wrong with you.

Matt:  Well, it’s funny you bring that up because inadvertently, and I promise, this was inadvertent, in the very beginning, our primary color on our website and our logo has been red.

Jeffrey:  Cool.

Matt:  And we redesigned our logo a few years ago. The intention was to make it sort of be kind of a fancy looking funnel, but I’m wearing it right now, I have a sweatshirt with our logo on it and when I wear it on a plane, it looks like a squiggle of ketchup. It just looks like ketchup. So, people assume that it’s from the ketchup people. Maybe that was all subliminal. I don’t know.

Jeffrey:  That label is so recognizable.

Matt:  I appreciate you joining the show again today. We’ve been talking’ about the new book, Truthful Living: The First Writings of Napoleon Hill. You can find it on Amazon or where all fine books are sold. Hardcover, Kindle, audio book.

Jeffrey:  Yep.

Matt:  I love it. What I love about what you’ve done here is you’ve taken some of this universal sort of lessons that have been passed down from Napoleon. Some of the early work that he’s done. Well before books like Think and Grow Rich and others were published. You talk a little bit about where this has come from. Talk a little bit about some of the other stuff you’re working on these days. I know you’ve got other books in the process. You’re constantly around the world speaking. I’ve been checking out your new podcast. Maybe it’s not new now.

Jeffrey:  It’s about a year old and we’re at about, I think this month we passed 100,000 downloads.

Matt:  Wow.

Jeffrey:  Which is pretty amazing.

Matt:  That’s pretty good.

Jeffrey:  People love the podcast. We call our listeners diehards. We, of course, have the wristband that says, “Sell or die.” It defines sales. You sell or you’re dead. There’s no second place in sales.

Matt:  This is true.

Jeffrey:  You didn’t almost win a deal. You got to nothing. Those are the elements.

Matt:  What have been your approach to content diversity? You’ve got a blog. You’ve got the podcast. You’ve got the book. I assume it’s been fairly intentional to diversify the channels to get your message out.

Jeffrey:  Yes. There’s no one channel that brings me my business. Although, I will tell you, a lot of now comes from my social channels. Most people will brag about the fact that they got 1,800 connections on LinkedIn. I have 28,000 connections on LinkedIn and a hundred and some thousand followers on Twitter and five million views on my YouTube channel. The phone rings and someone will say either, “I read The Little Red Book of Selling.” Or “I read The Sales Bible.” Or “I read the Gold Book of Yes Attitude.” Or “I follow you on Twitter. I follow you on LinkedIn. I listen to your podcast.” You can’t just have one thing. You have to have enough diversity so that when someone Googles, hey, I need somebody who’s an expert in sales, your name pops up.

Matt:  Right.

Jeffrey:  If it doesn’t, it’s because you haven’t posted enough about your expertise. I don’t want to say this as a brag. I just want to say this as a fact. I’ve delivered about 2,500 corporate seminars over the last 23 years. I’ve never made a phone call. Everybody calls and wants to buy. People don’t like to be sold, but they love to buy. I own that trademark phrase. That’s the challenge that you’re facing in the marketplace. Who knows you? In sales, it’s not who you know. In sales, it’s who knows you. That’s the way it works in this, you knew who I was before we ever talked on the phone.

Matt:  Absolutely.

Jeffrey:  You probably have one of my books or two and you probably violate my copyright law when you go out and do training. It’s fine.

Matt:  I want to ask you a question about that. I think about some of the stuff that you’ve written. The Little Red Book of Selling. I don’t know very many sales leaders that don’t have that in their library.

Jeffrey:  Correct.

Matt:  Once you’ve read something and you believe in it, it becomes part of who you are. You start using that language. How do you think about that, from the idea of sort of maintaining control of your IP and your language, with allowing it to become part of the nomenclature of sales, which really ends up driving more business back to you, I assume?

Jeffrey:  I trademark things. I copyright things. And still, people take liberties. I can’t control that. But, if you look at any one of my books, you’ll see that if there’s a full page quote, you’ll also see my name at the bottom of it. So, I don’t let people simply copy my stuff without seeing my name. It’s very important. If you look up The Little Red Book of Selling, if you just open up the book, if they copy a page, it doesn’t just say the title. It says the title and my name. Every single page. It’s designed specifically that way because I know people are going to take liberties. I know somebody’s going to say, “Here’s how you network. Here’s how you ask questions. Here’s how you close deals. Here’s how you get leads.” I’m okay with that, as long as they say my name. I’ve become known synonymously, literally, I’m the King of Sales because I named myself. Nobody else took the title, so to hell with it. I took it. If someone thinks they’re good enough, challenge me. I’ll step down. But these are the rules of challenge. Ready?

Matt:  Yep.

Jeffrey:  We both do a seminar in front of 1,000 people. Same day. We each put $50,000 in cash at the end of the stage. At the end of the hour, the audience votes. Winner take all. Somebody else could become the King of Sales. All they’ve got to do is beat me.

Matt:  Right.

Jeffrey:  Simple, right?

Matt:  Pretty simple.

Jeffrey:  So, have your listeners phone in. If they want to take my challenge, I’m happy to do it. I would love to do it.

Matt:  It’s a good lesson that words you put on a page are one thing, but it’s your ability to execute that’s really the differentiator. We got just a couple more minutes here with Jeffrey Gitomer, the King of Sales.

Jeffrey:  Let me give the secret.

Matt:  Do it.

Jeffrey:  The reason I’m as good as I am is I’m a student of what I do every day and I love what I do every day. If you don’t love what you do, you can never rise to the greatness that you’re hoping for. You have to have the passion.

Matt:  Absolutely.

Jeffrey:  That’s how ball players, they go to the Hall of Fame, or they go to the All-Star Game. They want to be the best and they’re the most passionate about it.

Matt:  Jeffrey, I want to ask you a personal question as we run out of time here.

Jeffrey:  Sure.

Matt:  I’m going to ask it to you only because it’s in your bio, so I’m hoping that it’s going to be all right. You say in your bio, “My name is Jeffrey Gitomer. I’m a salesman. I’m a dad. I’m a college dropout.” I want to ask you about the middle one because you talk about in your bio your daughters, you say they taught you patience. I would love to hear how your approach to selling and whether patience has become a part of your sales approach, from what your daughters have taught you, as well.

Jeffrey:  I have four daughters and four granddaughters now, and a fiancé, and two female dogs. I have all girls. All the time. You can’t yell at girls because they’re girls. My patience was tried as an early father. When the kids would do something wrong, I had two choices. I could yell at them, or I could question them. I chose questioning and it was very simple. I go, “Wow. How did that happen?” And they go, “Well, we did … ” You think that was the best thing you could’ve done? And they go, “Well, no …” I said, “What do you think you could’ve done that would’ve made the outcome a little different?” And they go, “Well, we could’ve done this, this …” I said, “Well, do you think you could do that next time?” And they go, “Well, yeah.” I said, “Well, let’s do that.” And done.

The problem is that we, as parents, have zero patience. You have an iPhone, or some reasonable facsimile that doesn’t work as well, and coast to coast, you call me from Seattle to Charlotte and the call takes three seconds to go through and you’re tapping the phone like, “Why is it taking so long?” No. How does it know? How does it know what to do? It’s like a miracle.

Okay. We, as a society, have no patience. Domino’s pizza … we deliver it in 30 minutes, or it’s free. Everybody wants it now. Everybody wants it for nothing’. Growing up in that society, you have to have the patience and the structure to be able to perform in that environment.

Matt:  Right.

Jeffrey:  I have learned it by being a dad.

Matt:  Hey, we are unfortunately out of time. They only give us a half hour here, Jeffrey.

I could keep going. We didn’t really get back to good food in Seattle. But, we’ll have to do this again sometime.

For those of you listening, if you want to learn more about Jeffrey, you can check him out. Well, you can check all of his books out, quite frankly, at Amazon. His new book, Truthful Living: The First Writings of Napoleon Hill. To learn more about you, you’ve got tons of content on your podcast. Where should people check you out directly?

Jeffrey:  In the show notes, which I’m sure you’re going to put in there, just put the Amazon link to Truthful Living or the link to or and that will make me the happiest man on the planet.

Matt:  Last question for you, 2019 predictions for the Phillies?

Jeffrey:  The Phillies will be able to hit the ball out of the infield on the fly for the first half of the year like they normally do and then they will die. This year, we made it all the way to September before we died.

Matt:  Sounds good! Yeah.

Jeffrey:  Wait a minute. But the Eagles will kick the Seahawks ass into the dirt where they belong because I hate the Seahawks and their coach. Just for some reason I just don’t like the guy. It was the only time I ever wanted New England to win a game and they lost on the dumbest call of a play in the history of sports. Marshawn Lynch. And he passed the ball.

Matt:  It’s still too soon to talk about that. That’s still painful.

Jeffrey:  Yeah. I apologize. But, it was the dumbest play in the history of sports. Any argument with that?

Matt:  Well, yes, in hindsight.

Although, if it would’ve worked, we would’ve called him a genius.

Jeffrey:  C’mon. Marshawn Lynch quit the team after that.

Matt:  He did. I don’t know if you know it or not, now we’re way over time, the Raiders did it to him earlier this season again. As you notice, he’s not playing again.

Hey, thanks very much for joining us on Sales Pipeline Radio. We will be back here next week at 11:30 Pacific, 2:30 Eastern for more great guests. On behalf of Jeffrey and my great producer, Paul, thanks for joining us. This is Matt Heinz on Sales Pipeline Radio.