By Matt Heinz, President of Heinz Marketing

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We were thrilled this last time to be able to talk to Jonah-kai Hancock, Senior Director of Marketing – Field Marketing, Demand Generation and Operations at TUNE

We’re calling this episode:  Marketing Operations 2.0: How One Company is Managing the Next Generation of Martech Stacks

More about Jonah-kai:  He is a proven leader with 15 years of experience creating content, building marketing programs and leading highly-functional teams. My experience encompasses Product Marketing, Online Marketing, Marketing Strategy, and Content Strategy for B2B focused companies.

Matt Heinz:  Welcome everybody to Sales Pipeline Radio. If you’re listening to us live, thank you for taking a break from what has to, Paul, be one of the most unproductive work days of the year. Even just in our office, walking around, awful lot of college basketball on people’s screens today.

Paul:  Yes, yes.

Matt Heinz:  It’s amazing, team meet up, people that don’t know anything about college basketball all of sudden days like today get pretty interested.

Paul:  Well, it’s because of the green beer. It all goes back to that.

Matt Heinz:  Well if you’re listening live, thank you very much for joining us. If you’re joining us from the podcast, thanks for joining us. We are available through subscription always on Google Play and the iTunes store, and every episode of Sales Pipeline Radio is always available, past, present and future, on demand at

Every week we are featuring some of the best and brightest minds in B2B sales and marketing. Today it is no different. I’m very, very excited to have on the show today Jonah-kai Hancock. He is the senior director of marketing for Tune and, first of all, Jonah-kai thanks very much for joining us today.

Jonah-kai:  Hi, thanks Matt. Appreciate the time.

Matt Heinz:  Absolutely. Well, I’ve wanted to get you on here for a while and I think we saw each other at ABM workshop here in Seattle just a few weeks ago. It became clear just how much you guys are trying to get done and how much is in your purview. You got field marketing, demand gen, operations, and your technology stack is pretty significant.

Want to have you start with… As you look at the variety of things now under your purview, how do you focus? How do you decide where to focus and what should get your attention as a marketer?

Jonah-kai:  Yeah, thanks. It’s a good question, and I too also agree with the college basketball. It is one of those days that everybody’s walking around.  I have friends in Vegas and it’s a good day to watch them and try and work.

Technology focus. What are we focused on? That’s a great question. I’m kind of the mind, for me specifically, I always try and look back. For me, what are we going to focus on for this quarter? We’re a company that moves pretty quickly. Our industry moves quickly. We’re in mobile marketing and so I always try to ladder back up to, what are our objectives for the quarter? Simply because, if I don’t, I can easily get distracted, right? And for us, right now those opportunities really ladder around sales marketing alignment. Like, how do I better align my marketing team, my field team and all the things that we do to align to sales and helping them grow?

Interesting perspective, I come from the marketing side of the world, right? Sales Pipeline Radio, you talk about a lot of sales and marketing. I come from the marketing side, so how do I drive that alignment, one? Two, how do we continually get better at evolving our strategy? And that’s kind of a vague, lustrous thing to say, but, breaking that down, what does that mean to me? It’s like, how do we get better at driving campaigns that focus on target accounts? How do we get better at working regionally in accounts to focus on that? How do we get better at measuring those things so that everything we do drives around a strategy that drives performance.

The third thing I’d say that we’re focused on right now is, actually, we believe in testing a lot of technology, so we like to iterate fast, so we’re always testing two or three different technologies to see how they perform on our tech spec and if they can make us more efficient. So, the things that I put my team on are kind of a ladder into those different opportunities if that makes sense.

Matt Heinz:  Yeah, it definitely does. We are talking to Jonah-kai Hancock, he’s the senior director of marketing for Tune, and you know, I’ll get to your tech stack here in a little bit because you guys do have a pretty heavy tech stack and I like your proactive strategy of continually testing and refinement. You know, you mentioned, you were talking about some of your objectives for the quarter for your team, and sort of aligning with the sales organization. I know you guys specifically focus on trying to jive a percent of sales booking and sales opportunities from marketing. You also mentioned measurement. How do you have to build to the measurements systems behind that? Where are you putting focus in building systems that can directly track marketing’s effectiveness and impact on the sales pipeline?

Jonah-kai:  Yeah, I specifically, down to the actual technology and how they’re working, do you want me to go to that level for you? We focus a couple of different ways. We have evergreen campaigns that we run across the quarter, so kind of pick different thematic things that we’re running across the quarter. We run those campaigns. With those campaigns we have a content team. We talk about how do we plan that campaign, right? So, let’s say that the theme is better together. So what is better together look like, right?

We actually sit down with a content team. We actually overlay sales marketing funnels and we outline, okay so this campaign, here’s our main message, main theme, but here are the five to ten pieces that we’re going to have hit through the sales campaign, and the different parts of the funnel that are going to make an impact, right? And those pieces can be things that perform really well for us, our case studies. First part of your research, you going to do a ton of first prior research for the upper level funnel. We do a ton of trying to catch you blog content. A ton of different types of things around that to get you in the funnel in the middle of the funnel. Then we start to layer out.

Okay, great. We want to make sure that have case studies. We have numbers to back that up. That’s some of our first part of research data there, right? Then as we get to the lower half of the funnel, we’re heading over to sales. We’re trying to drive more pieces that the sales team’s going to be using so, sales collateral, one sheets, the tire of the future benefit saving, right? So the first part of the plan is that, from there we literally go out and build a campaign.

Our tech stack saves. We use sales Marketo, we use lean data, to scrub to make sure we have attribution correct. And then we use a myriad of different tools but once we get those campaigns running, we’re pushing those campaigns out through all of our different channels. Pretty standard channels that most people probably know. Web, digital, targeting, events, social and everything we tag. We’re just taggers. So everything we tag we have a tagging hierarchy, so anything that goes out we use, actually, our own technology, Tunelinks. So we basically have links to everything. And then when we ingest those things back we can actually attribute back to each of the different pieces, what part of the funnel they hit, through what campaign they came through. We stuff all that data into our systems then we push out a whole bunch to tab loader ports on basically a weekly basis and look in to see how the impact of those pieces helped move different people to the funnel.

Tactically at a high level that’s how we kind of execute campaigns and kind of use some of the different technologies internally.

Matt Heinz:  Now you mentioned the tab lower ports and the regular review of those. What cadence do you use to make adjustments? I mean like getting that insight is fantastic, sounds like you guys have a great system for that, how often are you looking at those results, how often are you making changes to your execution?

Jonah-kai:  So the evergreen campaigns actually we let those go long run, so that the actual campaigns themselves, we let pieces run for about four to six weeks before we make a change, simply because, I think a downfall of marketers is always that, we think that the target audience gets our message much sooner than they actually do, and while it might be boring to us, or we might be continually talking about the same thing, we think that it might be over but it takes a long time for that to permeate through and for people to get that.

So we actually let our evergreen content run for about six weeks before we make any changes, and tactically what does that look like? To pay upon the channel, I want to see anywhere from 50 to 100,000 impressions, with the water falcon version metrics that fall down from there, before I want to make any decision on any piece of content. And the channels themselves specifically, the team, my team always iterating, and often time optimizing right, so making sure that, if we are looking at search, that the key word campaigns that we’re running, the keywords are performing, if we’re doing social retargeting, do we have the right audience.

So any to the channels, we’re constantly optimizing based on the myriad of things that you can do there, but the campaign itself, I’m not going to touch any of the content, or look at swapping out content for at least four to six weeks.

Matt Heinz:  Yeah. So you got a pretty structured way of approaching, getting your campaigns out into the field, getting them tracked and measured. You and I both know no matter how structured and impressive that is, the sales team can still come back and say, “well, those leads suck, we’re not going to follow up with them, and we’re just going to cherry pick the ones we want.”

Talk a little bit about your strategies and what’s worked well for you to really align with the sales organization to ensure there’s consistency in the middle, and that they are aligned around the journey, but they’re also aligned around lead management and conversion.

Jonah-kai:  Yeah absolutely. It is actually one of the challenges, I was in a meeting this morning, then I went to, I’ve currently have built out of my team, we have field marketing right, so field marketing to me is really the essence of how do you make sure that campaigns landed field. So I’ve got field marketing teams across the globe. And in each of those teams we’ve built out a process for which weekly, it’s the responsibility of the field marketing managers to pull together all of the stats for the week.

So, we’re a targeted, we’re ABM, so we’d look at, most people think of a conversion funnel as prospects, suspects, prospects, you’d generate an MQL, the MQL goes to a sales central leads sales qualified area. In our targeted account world, we look at target accounts, marketing engaged contacts, which means they’ve engaged with our campaign, sales accepted contacts, sales contacted contacts, then qualified acts of opportunity.

So I actually have, each one of my field marketing managers on a weekly basis has, and it’s old school, but we have it in an excel sheet. They have the table there, or they have what our goals and targets for each of those waterfall metrics are, so say I need to have 250 marketing engaged contacts for the week, and the waterfall metrics fall from there, and then they fill out that data, and then they come to a meeting every Friday, we sit down with the head of the FBRs reach region, and we actually go through those metrics, and to look at the actual, how’s everything performing, and we talk to them, and say “are you seeing these A1s, here’s what we’re supposed to be seeing, what’s the feedback you get there”.

The challenge is, in our minds we think hey, you know what, if we come to the table and we have all of our metrics and we have all the reports and look at this, the sales team is going to be, “Oh great, I’ve looked at every single one of these, engaged contacts or qualified leads”. And the challenge we have is that, from a shared resource bandwidth, they don’t have the opportunity to do that, and so we’re talking right now about some strategies in which we can try and help automate some of that qualification for them, maybe raise the bar on the qualifications we have, but it’s an ongoing dialogue.

It literally is a weekly conversation, and the conversation we had this week is that, with inbound and outbound prospecting activities, they can’t follow up all of our leads, so we’re kind of going back to the drawing table right now to figure out how we can qualify the accounts further down the funnel before we extend them over. So it is literally a weekly conversation.

But I’d say having influence in that process, we’ve only being implementing it for about three or four months now, it is probably one of the single most effective pieces to never or not have the sales team come back to us and say that they don’t know what we’re driving, that they don’t know the numbers that they’re seeing, because we talk about them every week.

And then there’s also being a really eye opener for my team to figure out, okay hey, I’ve got to figure out how I can qualify these, or help automate more of this process, because I can’t just give somebody 200 leads in a week in addition to their outgoing activities and say “qualify all these inbounds, oh and do your outbounds, because they just don’t have time. So it’s an ongoing process.

Matt Heinz:  Yeah, and so it absolutely is, but I think that what you’re describing in terms of the level of over communication and the meeting rhythms. I mean just having that active conversation, I think is maybe one of the most important parts of trying to navigate that sales and marketing alignment, I mean it is a journey, and it is rare that people get to a destination and stay there, I sometimes think the alignment between sales and marketing and operationalizing that as your org changes, as your customer changes, as the buying journey changes, it’s kind of like gardening, you’re never done gardening, you’re never done sort of improving and iterating on that program.

One question I want to ask real quick before we have to jump to break here is you talked about inbound versus outbound, and I know we were talking beforehand about the different roles in the sales organization. For those, which leads are getting called up, which are you not waiting for, to come in internally if you’ve identified a target account, going outbound, which parts of those are owned by sales, are any parts of those owned by market?

Jonah-kai:  Quick answer in before the break, in my previous roles in companies like Concur and things like that, we had the STR role, or the SD, the sales coordinator role, or MDR, marketing and development rep, sat on the marketing side of the world, and they would feed the negotiator of, “hey, I’m going to follow up with them on some level and hand it over at a ten or fifteen percent engaged, or marketing engaged contact that has fans, or has some qualification criteria, I’m going to hand it over to sales.

We don’t have that here, at Tune. We have a ISR, and STR, and we’re looking at doing a sales coordinator right? So STR being the person that manages all of the inbound, they do minimal outbound processing, in conjunction with an ISR and their AE, and the ISR’s are doing all outbounding. So they’re a little bit higher than an STR, typically working hand in hand with a sales engineer, or sales executive, and doing that outbound.

But we’re working on the ratios right now, how much can an STR manage, and what point do they hand that off to an ISR or a sales executive, versus how much can an ISR handle and potentially help the STR as well. I think the answer for me is, I like a sales coordinator role, that kind of sits below the hierarchy, right, if you have an ISR and an STR and a sales coordinator.

A sales coordinator or a what can be termed in some places as an MDR, market development role, kind of helps manage that. Because the challenge we have now is that, getting from that sales coordinator level, which marketing today is doing, we’re trying to get it through automation, but to the STR, is a little bit of a challenge. They don’t have enough bandwidth, so, I don’t know the correct answer right now, we worked on a whole bunch of metrics for how many accounts they can manage, how many touch points they have in a week, the standard kind of metrics that you’ll run through, and be like “oh, well they can make 300 calls in a week, and they can do 200 emails”, we’re working through those things but at the end of the day it also comes down to their familiarity with it, how good of a sales rep are they, like are they good at qualifying, or are they not good at qualifying?

Some reps are good and bad, and how good is the marketing team at doing it. So it’s a fine balance, but it’s always heated and fun discussions to have with the team.

Matt Heinz:  Countless variables, lots of complexity, but that’s kind of what it takes to manage enterprise sales pipelines across sales and marketing today.

We’ll be back, we’re going to pay a couple of bills here, take a break. Back more with Jonah Kai-Hancock, he’s the senior director of marketing for Tune. We’re going to talk a little more about his Martech stack, his strategy for managing and optimizing that Martech Stack; talk a little about mobile marketing, and then we’re going to talk a little bit about Tune Postback as well. We’ll be right back on Sales Pipeline Radio.


Matt Heinz:  Thank you very much Paul, well if you like what we’re talking about today, this could be kind of heady stuff, and I think sometimes these are the kind of episodes Paul where sometimes they give you, you get the recording and your listening to it again, or read the transcript, you maybe sometimes catch a few things you missed the first time around, especially around that level of complex B2B sales pipeline management. Yes Paul?

Paul:  Well, and I just want to note again, the word, heady, fits in to the fact that you invented Green Beer. So I just wanted to, there was a consistent theme running through today’s show here.

Matt Heinz:  Thank-you Paul for that quality contribution to the broadcast, I appreciate it. Oh man, so if you like what you’re hearing today make sure you join us for future episodes of Sales Pipeline Radio, coming up next week we’ve got Alli McKee, she is the CEO of Stick, we’re going to be talking about sales presentations. Why do so many sales presentations suck, why are they ineffective, and how do you make them better?

Coming up later we’ve got Jim Ninivaggi, he is a long time analyist from SiriusDecisions, he is a founding member of the Sales Enablement Society, and currently the chief readiness officer at Brainshark. We’re going to be talking a little more about sales enablement and sales readiness, a little bit of topics we’re talking about here as well, in terms of sales and marketing alignment.

But I want to get to our guest today, Jonah Kai-Hancock. He is the senior director of marketing at Tune, and Jonah talk a little bit about; let’s talk about Tune for a second here, and what you guys are doing in the mobile space. I know you guys have been a fast growing startup doing some amazing things to help mobile marketers. Talk a little bit about, for those that are either engaged mobile, or should be engaged in mobile, kind of what you guys are doing and where you are seeing mobile just exploding on to the marketing scene, both B2B and B2C.

Jonah-kai:  So that’s going to be a high aspect of what Tune does right, think of us as a mobile measurement CRM or mobile measurement attribution platform right? So we integrate with over 15 2000 add partners, we call supply side partners, think the googles, the twitters, the app lifts, the Wadogo, imobie’s of the world. You go out, you want to acquire a whole bunch of users, you acquire those users, you’ve got to pay for them, right? The mobile world is much different than our traditional kind of desktop, B2B world we think of, because it’s a lot harder to get eyeballs.

And, you only have two crowds to convert right? That’s the google play store, and or the apple store. So, we help customers run these campaigns, measure the performance of those campaigns, and then once people install their apps or start doing things with our apps, we kind of start telling them a couple of different things, right? That’s the acquisition component of it, we tell you where your best acquisition comes from, which channel is it, and then once somebody uses your app, like you know the big problems people have is retention, and like a lot of people, like the status, use eight apps, and then after that they don’t use anymore, and three of those apps are owned by Facebook, three of those apps are owned by google, the ones are text messaging and the other ones your email.

So once you use your app, how do you engage with users, how to drive them further to follow, we have tools to help them do that. And then we also have tools to help them think of app store optimization, SEO optimization, how do you optimize your apps within the app store, so they can be found for people that are searching.

So in that continuum of mobile marketing and acquisition engagement, retention, adoption, loyalty so and so forth, we sit in the middle of that. So Tune does.

Matt Heinz:  I continue to be impressed at just the leverage that companies get, especially at B2B with mobile and the impact it’s having. A company like Caterpillar for example has like 350,000 mobile users, and Exxon mobile over 400,000, and these companies, I think from your research indicates, they’re almost two times as likely to be successful, than those not using mobile.

For those listening, and I appreciate you not wanting to sell Tune, but I definitely would like to give you a plug for having us plug up Postback; talk a little bit about the conference you guys do. I think this is coming up, this will be the third year this summer, this July, you guys do Postback, why should mobile marketers attend this conference.

Jonah-kai:  Yeah we call it the mobile event of the summer, so Postback, we don’t say it’s a Tune event, we say it’s a mobile event right, so Postback, Seattle Washington, July 20 – 21st, we do it at McCaw hall, which is downtown.

We’re bringing over 2000 of the best speakers and best minds in the industry to talk about where the industries going, right? So if you don’t go for something like that, the E-commerce side of the world, we bring the Amazon’s, we bring the Flipcarts, which is a big one in India, we think of transportation, like the MyTaxis from Europe, we bring the Expedias, then you start to go, so we bring all of the heavy hitters.

Some of them are our customers, and some of them are customers, but they come in and talk about what does mobile mean, what does it mean to them. We always have a continuing vein, is mobile a channel or is mobile its own completely separate thing, and that always turns out that mobiles not really a channel, mobiles its own kind of beast.

And so, 2000 people, in Seattle, two days, tons of learning, tons of panels, we always like to bring in some really thought provoking key notes as well, we’ve had Ray Kurzweil, we’ve had Malcolm Gladwell. We bring in some people that kind of think about how the evolution of not just devices, but what the evolution of society and what that means. Mobile is just really an evolution of technology and society right? Because your mobile device is with you all the time, and then we understand mobile expand into all these different areas now, right? You have T.Vs and watches and things like that.

So Postback’s a time for the industry to come together and talk and share their experiences and we like to have a little bit of fun with it too. So, it’s a great event, 2000 people, if anyone wants to check it out.

Matt Heinz:  Love it, love it. Well thanks very much for sharing that, definitely encourage people to check that out if you are in B2B and not doing much with mobile, I’d highly encourage you to re-think that, and check out some of the great resources at around that as well.

We’ve just got a couple more minutes with Jonah Kai-Hancock, the director of marketing at Tune, maybe real quick Jonah just, you know we’ve been talking a little bit about your tech stack, we can maybe share sort of your infographic with your text stack with our notes with people that are listening.

But I specifically want to have you address how you are evaluating new technologies. What is your strategy in cadence for continually reviewing, auditing and optimizing the tech stack you have in place?

Jonah-kai:  A lot of it has to do with a couple of things right? So if you look at the, when you see my infographic, you’ll see I kind of break it down where there’s operationally things that we look at. There’s demand, how do we increase demand on our tech stack, how do we manage content authentication, how do we manage the collaboration, and kind of how to develop sales enablement, and that kind of follows the funnel if you will for sales and marketing.

When I think of the Tune tech stack, I think of optimizing it in a couple of different ways. So from an operation stand point, you know, our team uses Marketo on a lot of sales calls. But I want to make sure that my team has all the tools they need to efficiently communicate with our customers in the channel, track and measure the engagement with those people in the channel, and then help to expand the accounts we’re looking at, right?

So if you look how they do, we’re looking at the optimizing, we’re looking at will they use wordpress, we use Yoast for some of the acquisition, we start to look at all the different channels we use, like Bing, Admiral, things like that. The tools, those are kind of steady. I think everybody that listens to this podcast will say ah, I’ve got most of those things, but things that we’re on the fringe and starting to test.

To make our tech stack more, we’re starting to dive more into the predictive sides of the world, and then also into the cleaning up our data side of the world, right? We drive a ton of inbound acquisitions, something to the tune of 6000 – 8000 new contacts per month, and we get a lot of redundancies. So we’re looking at tools right now.

A really great tool out there that I love is LeanData, we use LeanData to help merge accounts, manage attributions; and then we use that as well to measure the impact that marketing has on the sales funnel. We want to see where the touch points are in that sales funnel, and the sales and marketing funnel that marketing driving, and how we can get more efficient.

Some of the predictive things we’re looking at right now, I mentioned that we’re doing account based marketing, is we’re looking at some of the predictive technologies. So we’ve built a rubric that says “hey, these are our hundred accounts that we’re going to go after this quarter for each of the regions”, but that doesn’t focus on the other tier 2 ones, let’s say the 253 accounts, that might be in the middle market, or even up the newcomers that also, we should be marketing to, but they’re not in our named account, right? It’s really hard for our sales team and for us to identify those next 250, and sometimes we don’t even know because their net new company is we have the global, so we’re looking at some of the companies out like Mintigo, look at their predictive audience and all of it, so how do I start to make it super efficient for my team to identify new accounts that they can put in our marketing mix to drive awareness.

Some of the other cool things that we’re doing right now is, we’re working internally with the sales team right? We use, Intercom across all our products to communicate with our customers. One big disconnect that marketing has had with, not the sales, but with the customer account team is that we look off for indicators that engage with the customers, or engage with the trials, and that stuff typically comes through the product and for the customer service or support organization.

So we’re trying to retire a tech stack now with those organizations. With Intercom, with heap analytics, with product usage. I tell everybody one of the coolest things I’ve seen is a sales person that sends an email every month, and they say, you’re using one third of the product, and you’re not using the other two thirds of the product.

That’s great, I can do the same thing if I can time my heap analytics, which tells us, how much of our customers, or our prospects in our sales pipeline are using our product, and how much are not. I can drive deeper, the option and things like that. So, I’m always trying segment the tech stack, and the different teams and their different functions, but I’m trying to build a 360 holistic view of what our customers are doing, and sometimes it requires learning the tools you don’t know, like I’m not a heap expert, I’m not an intercom expert, because they’re not the marketing tech stack, but I need them, and I need that data in my CRM so I can react to it.

Matt Heinz:  I love that you’re thinking about that from a full customer life cycle standpoint, it’s fantastic.

Well at this time of the day I usually start getting wild frantic hand signals from Paul, which means we’re almost out of time, which is good, because my brain is full. This has been a fantastic conversation. For Jonah Kai-Hancock, he’s the senior director of marketing at Tune, lots of insights into sales and marketing alignment, coordination, marketing tech stack, marketing ops, marketing measurement and more.

If you want to listen again and I highly encourage you do to get more out of this episode, you can find it on demand at in just a couple days, we will also have a transcript, with highlights of this conversation with Jonah Kai, up on

We are out of time, thank-you again to Jonah Kai-Hancock for joining us today, for my great producer Paul, this is Matt Heinz. We’ll see you next week on Sales Pipeline Radio.